Human Centered

Hi, everyone, and welcome to human centered. I'm Nick Brunker, a managing director of experience strategy at VML and your host for the show. Thanks for giving us a listen. Today, we're diving into how creative effectiveness is being completely redefined. In a world powered by first party data, we're gonna explore how creative has evolved from a static asset to a living system.

We'll discuss how brands are adapting to retailers becoming media companies, and most importantly, what kind of mindset mindset marketers need to bridge the gap between art and the algorithm. To help us navigate this landscape, I'm thrilled to welcome in Mari Sopkolowski, a seasoned marketing expert and currently the performance marketing personalization lead at Halion. With a fantastic background leading growth in retail publishing and for major brands, she's got a deep firsthand understanding of how to connect creative data and commerce in a meaningful way. I've been really looking forward to this conversation. Mari, welcome to the show.

Thanks for joining us.

Nick, thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here as well, and I love the topic that we have for today.

Yes. And and it's gonna be a very deep conversation. There's a lot to get into. So to start, before we get into the nitty gritty, tell us a bit about your current role and how it connects to all these big ideas we're talking about.

Yeah, so I'm currently working on the performance marketing team at Halion and I'm really charged with bringing personalization into the company, meaning, how do we work end to end from the way that we drive creative to the way that we bring our campaigns to life and even how we optimize them on the back end, all really driven by deep consumer insights and how we connect best with the consumers.

You also have a really interesting background of how you got to where you are at Spanz publishing and retail and obviously now consumer health. Walk us through some of that career journey and how all of those experiences have shaped your perspective.

Yeah. Well, I started off at the agency side, so you kinda get a crash course across all these pieces, but where I really cut my teeth in business was with the franchise called Pinot's Palette. And if you remember back to like 2010, 2011, there was this like social phenomenon happening on social media and really in like every major city. I was living in Houston at the time and met the co founders of Pinot's Palette and got really excited about the opportunity to be their first full time employee. And experience while I didn't know it at the time was so relevant and important to the opportunities that I've had in CPG and OTC especially with Halion over the past couple of years.

So what was really interesting about that is when you're building a retail chain and it's a startup type of environment everything that was going on around customer loyalty programs at the time really had a front row seat working with the co founders to develop the tech and to understand the importance of personalizing as well as get this firsthand experience with modular creative as you're working across franchises and managing multiple brand.coms and understanding how the consumer while they might be experiencing different locations or different events is really all part of like the same ecosystem for the brand. And I find that experience so applicable to what I'm doing now at Halion. It's like I've got the roadmap.

Let's dive into it then. It feels like this is a central challenge for marketers today, creative effectiveness and navigating a performance driven world, balancing the need for short term wins with long term brand love, and then figuring out, the fun part, in my opinion, how to optimize for what's really meaningful, not just what's fast and easy. So to kick us off, share how you've seen creative evolve from the static assets to something more dynamic and responsive.

Oh, I love this question so much. It is gonna really date me, I I think, I remember back to like 2006 something, like the Internet was just getting monetized and we had, I was at the agency at the time and we had a new brand manager come in and really challenged the plans that we had in place, which were quite traditional. I mean, is like magazine, right? Billboard, television, of course. And what the brand manager asked for was like, could you show me a plan that's a 100% digital?

And we kind of got stuffed in our tracks. We couldn't even imagine like, we even source enough inventory to meet the demand that the manager is asking for? So just like fun historical example of like, where have we been with this static assets and literally calling them billboards back in the day? I think we could get sometimes a personalization through contextual alignment potentially with the publishers you're selecting. But now the data frameworks, the measurement available are just fascinating.

And all of that, like a lot of that is coming through the retail partnerships and the modular creative we can use, the contextually aware portions of that being able to optimize in flight to how the consumer is responding to those messages. I mean, that's where we're at now. And so it's like night and day, right? Not only can we find all this inventory but we can really fine tune the messages that we're putting in them. So almost every touch point becomes this like super relevant opportunity to build our brands with the consumers.

And I think like there's a lot coming up here too that's so exciting and something that I love to listen to on your podcast too around AI, right? Like everyone's talking about this and the value it can bring with our consumers.

It's the fascinating distinction between the first party data and the precision that that can give us, but then also the resonance needed for being effective. And I'm curious for for somebody that has has kinda seen it the evolution of of the technology and and now like what it seems to be kind of an overabundance of data at times. How do you approach building that deeper emotional and behavioral memory instead of just doing what we used to do years ago is just clicks, clicks, impressions, clicks. Like, tell me about that distinction.

I think from, what I learned in the franchising model, again, like super applicable to what's going on now is we talked a lot about operational marketing. And this is the idea that good experience in the store, I'm talking about in the store, right? Would really lead to great word-of-mouth. And of course, like at the time in this industry really accelerated by social,

not

too different about like what's going on now by the way. But now we really have the opportunity to measure more with not just the in store experience and how consumers are reacting emotionally to that experience, but really what is their emotional experience, the digital ad, right? Like that's such a compelling measurement piece. And when we think about the net promoter score and how we used to use that for our in store consumers, I think this is kind of like the evolution of that. So how can we see that emotional response, that willingness for our consumers to engage, but also really bring that into their daily life through that emotional record that we can get through some of those new technologies.

There's also a really interesting tension to pull on. And anybody who's in performance marketing yourself, you know, chief among them, there's always that I have to perform in the short term. Short term performance is gonna help us continue building the business. Yet there's also, on the other side, the longer view of, well, what's the brand look like long term? How do I lay the foundation and continue to build the brand from a long term perspective?

It's a classic struggle. How would you advise brands based on your experience balancing the need for those immediate results with also the investment in the long term equity?

Yeah, I think this is like the biggest opportunity to blend the world, right? Sales and marketing are just so joined right now. And when you think about a modular template, right? And the equity components that can be built into that, like your logo, like your distinctive assets, And those things can remain consistent while the pieces that are driving performance, whether that's the price or the call to action or the message or the visual that you're putting in and how that might be super hyper contextualized and relevant to the consumer in that environment. That's the place where you could have the best of both worlds.

And I see this when I talk with the brand teams about this opportunity, they immediately understand, okay, I can have my campaign idea, but apply this in a way that my consumers will relate to even more than, you know, a message that might be one to all, right?

One other thing that I really am interested in in terms of the thematics of this episode is how retail is really, becoming the new publisher and how you build human experiences around that in this world, especially at at Halion, a major place where all of this is coming to a head is at that retail landscape. And that's undergoing a massive transformation. They're becoming, in many cases, as powerful media companies in their own right. So let's talk a little bit about what a truly human centered retail experience looks like now and how brands can use data to make it feel more like a service and less like a sell. So the first question out of that is, you've worked across the retail publishing and brand sites experience and in your career, what does truly human centered retail experience look like to you?

One of my most favorite projects while I've been at Halion and by way of GSK and kind of on thread with like this idea of delighting the consumer, right? And creating that joy and opportunity for consumers to like continue that story of your brand for you is a gift with purchase program, right? And these have been around for a while as promos but what I loved about this was actually leading a customer care package project where we thought about who is the consumer and what is their end wellness goal and what are some of the cross category or other wellness products that would make sense to introduce to this consumer who had like a very specific wellness goal in mind. And we looked across a few manufacturers, everyone was so excited to participate in this. And we actually were able to get like a verbatim customer review on the PDP of this gift with purchase.

And they were really excited not just for the free product, which was a great ad, but also that the contents were super thoughtful to what their wellness journey goals were and that they were helpful. And they were getting introduced to kind of this cool care package that encompass not just the products from Halion per se, but really across the retail environment and what could be other products that they might like. And so it was a huge success with the same promotion was repeated year over year. I don't know if it's still going on or not, but I would love to know that. And the retailer, they had experience in working with the retailer as well.

They love this to get the feedback with their consumers people in the aisle because it was such a great consumer

And we're seeing some of the most exciting work come from the collaborations where the creative is co developed. So you're doing really intelligent, fun, thoughtful things because you're thinking like a human would. It's like, well, they like this product and and a care pack package example. Well, what other things are tangential to that maybe specific product that could also improve their life or or any number of things. And some of that ends up coming, I would assume with the relationship with retailers who want to build the relationship.

So when somebody's looking for a product, they come to their store. And so a lot of times we've been hearing and and seeing with a lot of the clients, the creative gets co developed between retailers and brands. Why do you think that partnership model is so much more effective?

First of all, everyone loves a great collab, right? I think from the consumer angle, there's a lot of trust when you see co branded types of creative that come through just through those branding elements kind of work to two plus two is more than four sort

of

equation. But at the end of the day, it's about that trust. It's such a consumer focused exercise, right? The retailers know their consumers forwards and backwards. Brands know their consumers forwards and backwards.

And you put those two things together, I think that's really what makes a great consumer experience. And this is kind of funny, but you know, it's probably not a data driven podcast unless you're bringing up like an example from the pandemic, right? Right. Exactly. It's a lot of data that was happening and things that the environment was changing so quickly.

I think like it was, and one of the examples I recall during that time is in stocks were really tough, everything going on in supply chain and that's such a great data signal. And being able to work with the retailers on even like in stocks to drive the message of when the consumer can get the product that they really need. And in OTC categories that could be pain relief, that could be cough, cold, flu relief, like very, very relevant the consumer experience at the time and even vitamins. So this was a really important campaign and super successful just to be able to get the message out there like, hey, we've got product at your store. So come and get it.

It's on the shelves now. And that's just an example, I think super relevant also to innovation. As we think about product going through the DCs and getting out onto shelves and letting the consumers know not only that they're aware of it, but that it's there ready for their shopping experience.

And not to go back to the pandemic too much, I think

I know.

It it so true though that, you know, in those times, especially in your category and the brands that you guys hold, to be able to be, you know, trusted as not only does the product work, but it's there when I need it. It has so many ties emotionally to if I'm not feeling well or I need to improve just overall wellness that this brand was there for me and they showed up. It's it's not the same as, oh, I couldn't order this widget or whatever that I I needed. That would have been nice and convenient or whatever. We all obviously run into those, you know, out of stock problems at times, but it it feels so much more, I don't know, meaty and important when you're you're dealing in the space that you're dealing in.

So I would imagine and and you just not to pull on this thread too much further, being a marketer for the brand that you serve or the brands that you serve during the time in which we are serving, what a wild time to be in the business. No?

It was a wild time. I was actually an analyst on the drug channel. So it was a wild Crazy. I

mean, me through a little bit of the emotions too of it, because everything was moving so fast and information in the health space obviously has a lot of, you know, legal ties to it and there's, you know, privacy issues and all kinds of things that you're you're dealing with. It's a highly regulated industry. I just find it fascinating how, you know, where there are a lot of ties to dot Ts to cross, I think that's the adage. It's crazy how fast you guys as marketers would have to be really adapting on a dime. Right?

Yeah. And I think that's, you know, the financial industry is a lot like this too, where there's a lot of regulation around the data you can and can't use. Really, really always careful around that. And that's where some of the data triggers that don't even touch any of those restricted areas really come into play are super important for categories like that we're in with OTC. So time, day, in stocks, weather, how do you take these like sort of broader consumer experience triggers?

Because at the same time, our products are really applicable to a broad audience. If you look at the portfolio Halion has, you probably have one of our products in your medicine cabinet today. There is this specific symptom relief in many of our categories but at the same time pretty broadly applicable across general population. What was really interesting in needing to adapt at that time was that it was very manual. We did not have all the pipes in this industry and we like barely had retail data at the time, you know, and then with in the way that we do now through DSP platforms.

So

it was, manual of find the locations, use the data. We had the data, but like kind of find it. And then how often, what's the cadence of working with agency partners to get the campaign updated?

No doubt. And I think on the other end of that spectrum, with the explosion of retail data, how much data there there legitimately is, there's a real risk of just creating more noise and you're, you know, almost analysis paralysis and brands needing to cut through all of that while also partnering with retailers to say, how can we genuinely be helpful and relevant to the shopper journey? How do you do that? How do brands like yourselves cut through that noise so that the data you were able to mine from your partners at the retail side and obviously all your one piece stuff is actually making a difference?

The purchase data is such a strong indicator, right? And finding when I think about like the retail experience, especially in entertainment, was where Pinot's palette was kind of sitting. The ticket sales were a great indicator and you could kind of look at what types of paintings people like or what was the event theme for the night, whether it was a date night or a girl's night out or even a corporate team building event and be able to remarket in those areas. So I think like as retail media and category and lapsed buyers and all of that becomes more and more part of the brand's plan and this like merging of sales and the marketing and it's really all the same funnel. So that's happening but I have to go back again to this, that the broad application of data which is coming in part out of retail data, but also very widely available just through like demo targeting.

We're seeing just incredible amount of success and coming at personalization from a broad target as well. And I think that's really exciting. I think the technology and partners that we work with to enable this, like the technology is not quite there. Like how do you optimize towards some of these higher funnel KPIs, right? There's betas, we've done some of this stuff, but I think it's a huge opportunity as we think about DTV, CTV, and really creating that full funnel commerce experience with the consumer.

And you speak about media. It seems like the goal is to make it feel more like a service, not a sell. So what does it take to make an experience feel like it's more I'm understanding you versus I'm targeting you because I have this data. That's a tricky one.

Yeah, when you get it right, it's just perfect. The consumer just really understands and appreciates. It's really entertaining when it's done well, right? And I think we all know probably experienced firsthand that we're spending, six or seven hours a day on screens between your phones, computers, TVs. We've always got one in our pocket.

We wanna get a screen in our pocket.

And

almost 90% of Americans are using that second device, a phone or tablet while they're watching television. So you've got multiple screens happening at the same time. And I think for advertisers to continue to be super relevant and entertain their consumers in this way that makes media not feel like a service or feel like a service and not a sell. It's really important to consider what creative you're putting there. And like the recent example of course is Angel Soft at the Super Bowl, like so highly relevant, super engaging.

I

think it all took us a minute to figure out what's going on. But once we did, the consumer without even being a marketer knows what a great consumer insight that is. And here at Halion, we've got a really great creative asset that intersection of our Flonase brand with the Bridgerton creative. And it was an integrated production and just so well done because all these beautiful actors come out and the storyline just really put Flonies as a hero position. Was just so well done.

Super entertaining and a little bit unexpected there. And one more example that I just think really hit home to me as me being an ice cream lover is there's a Telente CTV or DTV. I think it was maybe on Netflix, but here I am late at night, I've got my ice cream in hand, a mid bite. And Telente comes up with the Bradley Cooper spot and they're telling me I can order it on DoorDash. I would have scanned that code so fast if I didn't already have my ice cream in hand.

I thought, wow, targeting has gotten really good.

How did you know?

And like, gold star. Yeah. I totally appreciated that. That that was a service. Right?

Like, here, you know, if I didn't already have it, I woulda I totally jumped in.

And testing the willpower too. It's like, yeah, I'm eating some now, but I might be able to get another show in if I buy this now. Yeah. And and speaking from somebody who lives in the Midwest and Cincinnati is where I'm located, Flonase is is that's a five out of five. You need that sucker, especially in the fall.

So that's awesome. Yeah. I think the other interesting thing that I wanted to get into with you and just get your perspective on is the marketing organization of the future or the marketer of the future. And we've talked about the evolution of creative and the transformation of retail. And that brings us to the people behind the work, which oftentimes are the most important part, if not the most important part.

So to connect these dots, the creative, the data, and the commerce, it seems to require a very specific set of skills and maybe more importantly, a specific mindset to thrive in all this complexity. And I think you mentioned AI earlier and how we talk a lot about it. Those are the two most, you know, used letters in all of our space these days. There is still a massive need for AI and the technology that underpins it, but the humans behind it are also gonna have to ultimately power it. And so what kind of talent or mindset do you think will define this next generation of marketers?

I think it's a great question. Like, I also struggle with that with myself. Skills do I need to be building in my own? How do I really leverage the power of AI? And I think that brings me to this mindset of just very curious, very, very curious marketers of the future.

Of how do we really harness everything that's going on? And just from my own career having a diverse background, we hear that a lot. In my case, industries, different experiences across sales, marketing, media, creative brand, even like the creator led economy too. And how do we either build teams that have really diverse backgrounds or find if you're at a smaller company and you don't have big teams find people that obviously entrepreneurial background or blend of experiences that can really help shape and inform not just how we're meeting our consumers but really have a good handle on all the levers that we can pull because we have those now, the pipes are there. And so I think curiosity, I think having diverse backgrounds and I think as the data continues, our ability to really find the strongest consumer insights is what will continue to drive like the growth of our brands, the growth of our companies.

And certainly AgenTeq AI is gonna help with that. All AI is gonna help with the research and how we communicate with the consumers but really being curious about our consumers is gonna be the foundation for that.

And how do you cultivate that? Because I think there's kind of a learned exercise as you go through your career. You've you know, talked about that. But as somebody who's also leading teams and you're talking to on this podcast other leaders who are listening and saying, I need that with my team. I need to get more out of my team, and I needed to have them be more curious and have more empathy.

How would you suggest that somebody in that mindset would say, how do you cultivate that?

I think it's a great question. When we have to get out of our comfort zones, right? I feel like this is a kind of tried and true method, but it really applies here too. For me, this is all around exposure. Like I click on everything.

So just encouraging not just to look within your company for those resources but to look and see what's going on. This is high transformation right now. There are so many leaders out there sharing their experiences, sharing questions of what questions are in their minds right now. But just getting that exposure, whether you're through places to click, signing up. I signed up for a million emails.

I mean, you do not want to see my inbox, my personal inbox. I just sign up for everything to see how are they messaging to me and where is that personalization opportunity? And I think like with everything that is so AI, it doesn't have all the answers and it won't capture all of the content that might happen off screen or in person. And I think it's important to go to the industry events, right? We see more of that than ever before.

And so I think continuing to live into those collaboration pieces in the industry will be really important and to give your teams access to that. As these big events grow, access could become limited. Making sure that people on your team have a seat in that presentation.

I'm curious, you talked about your Talenti example. Do you have an experience from your career that really captures the blend of art and analytics? A moment where you saw that connection click and what it taught you in that moment?

Okay, that's a tricky question.

Feel like Throwing all the curve Yeah,

well, it's super consistent with the theme here and I have to just lean into the fun of that with the art franchise background and my passion for data and analytics. It's a super fun question. And I think you have to really lean into this franchise. I got to lean into the question. So in terms of the experience and franchise ownership and really the opportunity to help define those like early days of a startup company.

I just, I fell in love with this service here and their tagline at the time. I'm not sure if it's still his name or not, but paint, drink, have fun. And it was just a master class in a business ownership truly everything from we talked about launching a customer loyalty program, the 1P data that came along with that to bookkeeping all of the analytics parts of that as well. The cash flow and the balance sheets were driving constant rigor on the investments for media and marketing or any other investment that our owners had that I had as a franchise owner, a unit owner as well. And so when I think about the blend of art analytics, it doesn't get more representative of really that seven years of my career.

That's so cool. It seems in some of this as you were kind of leading to the experience you had around how your leaders worked together with you on making it feel like this is a good brand story. It was an experience and people wanted to engage with it. It it feels like as much as there there is a technical challenge to some of this, it's also a leadership challenge. So how can leaders foster that culture that that's truly bridging the art and the algorithm in the world we live to unlock meaningful work?

Like life is messy, right? So marketing, you can't be in the pursuit of perfection, right? Like there's no perfect marketing plan. There never really has been, but now I think more true than anything to have the art part of it, to connect with humans in a real authentic way to participate in their life. That's little like messy.

So I think brand leaders are gonna have to let go a little bit and focus on systems, the frameworks, the guardrails should, those should aim for perfection. But you know, when you have those perfected and it's repeatable and it's set, then you almost have to put the consumer in the driver's seat and let your brand team start to have that conversation.

Before we wrap up, as you alluded to earlier, we always like to wrap up with some fun facts, some off the cuff questions and learn a little bit more about Mari off the clock. And I'd love to hear some of the things that keep you busy and maybe some fun facts people might not otherwise know about you. Do you have any?

Most people who know me do know that I love to ski. I know I ski a ton out West but two experiences are kind of fun to share. It's not just about, you know, they love to ski but they love to train to ski, right? And so I've had the opportunity to train with two world renowned skiers. One was in Portillo, Chile in the summer, which is very fun to ski in September with John Clendenen, who has just like this very swishy style.

And he was a two time world freestyle champion. Shab, if you've ever heard of like ski ballet, this guy like wrote the book on it. Very fun.

How did you get into that? A, I mean, obviously, everybody, you know, who gets into skiing usually is like, yeah, this is awesome and wants to continue doing it. But how did you get synced up with John?

So the person behind the syncing up there is my dad. Like we love to ski as a family and I'm passing this along. I got two kids. They've been on skis since they were two years old and it's something you can enjoy for a long time and you can enjoy it with your family. And when I think about my kids growing up and going off to college and like what will we be able to do together as a family when they come home?

What reason would I give them to hang out with me later in life besides babysitting grandkids potentially. But skiing and being outside, I have a deep appreciation for nature.

Tell me more about some of the other activities you like to do.

Yeah. So people would guess skiing. Like it's probably more normal type of activity to do. But what people would not really guess by just you know, meeting me in a Teams call or something like that would be that I participated in a thirty day canoe trip in Northern Canada where we paddled through the wilderness and we tracked for 440 miles.

We What? Come on.

Camped out every night. And it was an incredible experience. Yeah.

Thirty days like you were legitimately on the go thirty days and, you know, every night you'd camp somewhere and then get back on the water the next day for thirty days.

Yeah. On the go and off the grid, like, completely off the grid.

So nobody was, like, filming this for the Discovery Channel or something? Because, I mean, this sounds like like your life could be one of those TV shows. My goodness. That's crazy.

I think there was, like, an emergency radio in case we really got in trouble. But, yeah, we were off the grid.

So what what was the coolest thing that you saw if you could, you know, point point it to one thing over the thirty days that it really sticks in your mind?

Well, the wildlife, right? And we had been camping. There's all these like mini islands and Reindeer Lake, look it up there. It's a beautiful area of Northern Saskatchewan. And we had been camping on these small islands partly to avoid bears and come to be halfway through the trap and we're canoeing along here and a bear starts swimming up not really next to us.

We were never in danger but we thought wow, our our island strategy really isn't really isn't where it's at because these bears can swim and we had kind of forgotten about that.

That's unbelievable. And is that something that looking back, would you do it again? Or is that one of those, I'm glad I did it, but I'm never gonna do that again?

I think, there's trucking in my future. So I don't know when or where or who with. Part I think the the challenge right now is the who to go with. Right? So if there's any listeners out there that, are planning to track, I'd love to go to Patagonia.

Yes. I'll I'll make sure that we we sync up all your contact info in the show notes. Can you you get some tracking tracking friends to go with you. Mari, this has been such a great conversation. I know we've been looking forward to this for for many weeks now.

Thank you so much for taking the time and being willing to share your expertise with us, and we'll look forward to doing it again. Thanks a lot.

Thanks, Nick. This is a lot of fun.

And thanks to you all for listening to Human Centered as well. If you'd like to connect with Marie, we've included her LinkedIn profile, or maybe you could just go tracking with her. It's in the show notes. And you can also learn more about the innovative work they're doing at Halion by visiting them on the web at halion.com. We'd also love to hear your feedback on the show.

Give us a rating and offer up your thoughts wherever you listen to your podcasts, including Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, Amazon, and many more. If you've got a topic idea or just wanna drop us a line, connect with me on x at Nick Bruuncker, or just shoot us an email. The address is humancentered@VML.com. Thanks again for listening. We'll see you next time.