Human Centered

Hi, everyone, and welcome to Human Centered. I'm Nick Brunker, a group director of experience strategy at VML, and your host for the show. Thanks for giving us a listen. Amidst all the technological advances, new innovations, and a growing wealth of data we've witnessed over the last few years, one thing has remained the same. CX in marketing is still all about people.

With consumers truly in the driver's seat in how they engage and buy brands, commerce has become central to the overall brand experience and CX journey. Our guest today is here to chat more with us about why and how leaders need to be on the front foot when it comes to embracing advances while not losing focus on what really matters, the humans we're serving. I'm so excited to be joined today by VML's global chief commerce officer, Bethann Kemikow. Bethann, thanks for spending time with us today. Welcome.

Thank

you, Nick. It's great to be here with you.

Of course. It's been way too long since we've had a chance to sync up. And for those that haven't had a chance to meet with you, share a bit more about what you do here at VML.

Well, we've got the new VML. Right, Nick? The merge VML, which is the largest agency, although we won't just focus on size. We're gonna focus on the quality of our our practice capability. And today, that is a deep dive into all things commerce.

So I'm the global chief commerce officer. I also get to lead, our New York office.

And you teed it up nicely with the come together of all these huge superpowers across brand experience, customer experience, and commerce. What an exciting time to be not only in our company, but in the industry at large.

I I completely agree, and I do think that, it I don't know. Part serendipity, part intentional design that are 3 main practice areas of of commerce, customer experience or consumer experience and brand experience are uniquely coming together in an integrated fashion, which is at the heart of what is powering modern marketing today.

You've written a lot lately about this topic. A few of those articles will post up on our podcast page, but you've said AI might be becoming more of the head, but humanity remains the heart for a lot of our pros in the work that we do in our space. What should we be thinking about as we try to stay, quote, about the people with such advancements in tech machine learning, etcetera, becoming so ubiquitous these days?

Well, in the space of commerce, we like to use this expression that the consumer is the product now. And I I think that just helps us realign all of our organizational structures, all of our insights, all of the different teams within our our companies to think about the consumer at the heart of everything that we do, not just the product. We can't be product centric in the way that we used to be before. We have to be constantly responding to the changing needs and expectations of our consumers. And so I don't think that's anywhere truer than it is in that moment of commerce and where we're driving conversion with the consumer.

And so it's in that in that environment of commerce that I really love to put that consumer back front and center and really think about that human centered design around that person who is shopping and buying us.

And while we're also combating the rapid evolution of changing technology tactics like we've talked about, we're also up against kind of a generational shift as Gen z becomes even more impact to brands bottom lines. How has that changed the game for what you and leaders like you do every day?

Well, I think one of the big shifts that we're seeing is the power of, influence, not just for influence, but for the creator aspect of that, because I think we have a very creative generation as we see that get even skew younger into Gen Alpha. I think they're, an generation that wants to kind of co create with brands as much as they also wanna see creativity come from their peer group and from others that are influencing them to discover and to trial new product. And I don't think we can downplay how significant that is in how we think about buying today. And it it cuts across categories, vertical sectors, and, and even the de influencing aspect of that too. You know, when you really think about the influence factor and the power that these individuals have, and the relationship that they have.

So even when we know that sometimes these some of these folks are sponsored and more and more we're seeing that or that they're kind of really pushing you right into shopping I think that's one major shift that we're seeing. The other that we, I think that's one major shift that we're seeing. The other that we, find really fascinating is and we still know this because the data around physical purchasing hasn't declined even when mobile commerce and and digital commerce has, you know, accelerated and continues to climb. We're still seeing physical retail be a place of either closing deals, of a lot of, you know, try before you buy or, you know, you know, in there kind of, like, feeling, experiencing the tangible aspects of the shopping experience, but also still very much closing the deal too in physical retail. So, yes, it has to be reimagined, and it is.

But, it's still a very important channel for our Gen z and our younger generations.

I think you you got something that I'm really interested in. And it's it's obviously been something that we've we've touched on and be thinking been thinking about for for years. But it's it's the chasm that has existed between the offline and the online or vice versa. If you start online and you you end up kind of shifting and then picking kind of up where you left off and being able to to close that gap has always been kind of the holy grail, which is, okay. How can we, you know, collect all of this information, especially for big box retailer brands brands where maybe you don't own necessarily the point of purchase or other industries that are in that same same scenario?

What is going on in terms of the expectation of let's just stay on Gen z for a minute of yes. We we wanna kind of potentially prefer to shop in store, but have they kind of lost that interest in making sure there's still a unified journey and the jump from online to offline is seamless? Because I imagine it's not necessarily about them wanting to just prefer to be in store at point of purchase. It's making sure that maybe that the the store is actually, obviously, the end game, but it still has to be super connected and super unified. Are you still seeing that in the trends?

Absolutely. I mean, I think that, the idea of even omni commerce or omni retail is more alive and more real and more possible today than it's ever been before. And so there's an, again, an expectation of the brands that we're dealing with that they have those those channels really activated in a connected way for me. And they give you all the optionality that you could possibly give that makes sense for your brand. And I think it's, it's a very important change that's taking place because it the expectation on the retailer or on the manufacturer and brand today to understand my behaviors across those channels and recognize that I'm not necessarily thinking in a channel way.

I'm thinking about my experience with your brand or with your products. And that is what I need to have delivered against. So I think, and there's there is an expectation because that we know that the technology is there to be able to really track and usable, valuable ways for your engagement with the consumer across those channels that you are you are tracking and understanding and making, you know, good use out of the data that you're able to collect on my behalf. And those are places too where you're opting into data collection. I'm part of a community.

I'm electing to be part of your brand experience. And so the, the expectations around the exchanges is much bigger. And from all of our research, we we see that people don't really distinguish between the channel. They are thinking about a brand. And so whether because you've got your mobile device and it's operating with you at the, in the, in this physical store environment, or because you are experiencing that brand through multiple channels and actions several times throughout a week or a day in your interactions that you're merging in your mind.

It's all it's all that brand. It's all that retailer in your mind. It's not it's not the differentiation of channels anymore. You're not distinguishing.

So how is that impacting retail media? Because I think that's another area where it historically, depending on what what brand you're working with, they're even within the organization tend to be different leaders, different opinions, different ways of attacking retail media when it comes to, you know, that side of the business. Then tying that in with customer experience where commerce kind of sits in in between those things where you have to get the attention through retail media, smart targeting. You had to get people to buy in smart ways with personalized offers and things, and then you prove out the promise by going through customer experience, you you know, activities and and, using all of of those muscles. How is what you just talked about, being impacted or impacting, retail media in our space?

Well, in so many ways, if you've been in this space for a while, it's not very different than it was in terms of like trade relationships and trade spend between a manufacturer and a retailer. It's a new way of retailers obviously being able to monetize that captive audience and the fact that there is data that is valuable data around that audience. It does push the retailer to make more from those assets, and make sure that their assets are gonna be effectively working because now they can be measured, so that you have a better sense of how effective they are, and you can pick and choose, what you think is right given your brand and given the communications and the experience and engagement that you wanna drive. I think it's an incredible time, quite honestly. You know, we even see this in terms of and this is the most important proof proof point when you get into non endemic brands, like how important some of these marketplaces have become in the minds of consumers that if you are Royal Caribbean or Virgin voyages, you think there's is valuable to place ads, you know, in Amazon when, you know, people are looking for, you know, a new camera or, you know, beach, beach wear and resort wear and things like that.

So I think, the ability to now really see the retailer truly as a media, is super exciting and important. But it is also important to have agencies that are looking and teams that are looking holistically at the spend so that the manufacturer is getting as much economic value out of these equations as, say, the retailer is, since the retailer sort of whole business model can shift, as they're able to monetize more in these ways. I think also we will get into it in a bit, but that's also the importance of creativity. I think if we just look at all of this as an opportunity to just kind of push out content that becomes very programmatic and doesn't think about the real opportunity of exploiting these assets that are out there in these retailer marketplaces, for the betterment again of the engagement of the consumer and putting content out there that consumer is gonna really wanna engage with that makes sense for your brand. It's it's a complete missed opportunity.

And as we know with all media and all channels that perform as media, there is a there's not just, you know, what you can pay, but there's, you know, the owned earned share shareable aspect of how we wanna think about the content and the opportunity, that that comes from great content.

Totally. And we are blessed to work with some of the biggest brands in the world. So we're we're able to really get some rich experiences with some great partners, people that we can, you know, do really innovative things with every day. So we obviously have a myriad of listeners that, are in different companies and in different positions. What can leaders and pros from large companies, like the ones that we we work with day to day learn from some of the disruptor brands as they evolve their playbooks?

Because they're obviously playing with perhaps some of the the same same sets of muscles, but maybe a different deck of cards if you play that analogy out.

Well, first of all, I think we all need to be paying attention to who could be disrupting, even if it doesn't exist yet. Like, what what is the possibility of a new brand somewhat coming out of nowhere? And oftentimes they are percolating in the background. They've been around a lot longer than we think they have, but all of a sudden, something ignites them in usually a social platform like a TikTok or, you know, a space where they're getting discovered, and then we're they're able to retarget and and really, add fuel to that fire. But I think that, so there's I don't think there's a single brand on this planet and major enterprise wide, you know, product that can't be disrupted.

So that's that's one is to kind of like not think that you're just because you have years of equity or you're the go to brand and the leader in the category, that a disruptor brand isn't going to come out of nowhere, we oftentimes think of these brands as born in commerce. And they kind of have their own playbook. You know, they really are smart on it's not about they're not thinking in terms of building a funnel strategy. They're not, spending time and money in just upper funnel activity. They're getting very close to the consumer quickly to the moment of conversion and and captivating somebody while they're they have their first moment of of sort of interest and discovery, and how quickly they can try to turn that into conversion and then turn that into loyalty.

And then just keep that, you know, virtual cycle going where's where they do start to create the sense of community around their brand very quickly. And then that sort of is a network effect where it amplifies from there. So, it it is very cool to actually watch even how they'd start to think about brand extensions. So if you think about a pink stuff in the, house cleaning space, and, you know, the interesting thing too there is you're you're going into spaces where there's a lot of search. There are a lot of memes.

You know, there are a lot of, like, you know, hashtags that people follow, and there's already a a huge, group of influencers in this space. So, you know, it it it is, ripe for disruption when you know, and and for a very quick kind of viral ability for these brands to be infectious and to grow very quickly. And while they're never gonna be the size and they certainly aren't overnight the size of some of our big players, they they can take massive share, away from those players. So I always say to big enterprise brand brands to think about, you know, a repackaging strategy sometimes, maybe playing a completely different go to market strategy through a DTC route or through a pure social commerce play. It could be even the brands that you already have just repackaged differently with a slightly different narrative and story around it that just appeals to an audience in a very different way.

But you have to follow the playbook. You know, it's not just, you know, do one thing different. You have to think about all of the steps that follow that in terms of creating a sense of community, nurturing the community, speaking a different language, allowing the kind of influencer and creator community to have a different voice in the mix of, how your brand gets built and gets expressed. You have a lot less control. But on the other side of that, you can have a lot of growth.

Yeah. And I think you hit on something that reminded me about the the importance of just being really smart on how you're listening, both literally and figuratively, to what your customers want, who they're going to, why are they choosing one product over another or a brand over another to be able to to truly understand, like, the why behind what's going on. Obviously, that's something we've talked about a lot on this show, but one of the the major currencies of being able to, to to have the knowledge to be able to listen properly has always been, or at least in part has been the cookie. And, you know, you hear a lot about the quote cookie crumbling, and the goal posts have seemingly moved a handful of times since, you know, cookieapolypse or whatever you wanna call it is about to hit us. And and here we are.

It sounds like, at least, Google is planning to phase out those 3rd party cookies by the end of 24. And, yeah, again, even though we've been hearing about this for a while, in an industry where, as I mentioned, personalization at scale, it's more important than ever. It feels like right now, many might not exactly be ready for such a seismic shift knowing how important it is to build the relationship. And without that one p data, what do you do? Should we what should we be doing about this?

Well, I do think retail media is part of that answer and why it becomes more valuable. There is also the importance of experimenting yourself with DTC channels or DTC campaigns, and things that are allowing you to go out there and build your community. It just like CRM. You know, one of the things I think about a lot in in this moment is back to brilliant basics, but all done in new ways. So just thinking about kind of the basic fundamentals of how you build a relationship with the consumer, But then how do you do it in a way that is, feels regenerated and revitalized and modernized?

And then through so it's, you know, CRM, building loyalty and loyalty programs in a different way. When you look at the Ultas and the Sephoras and Starbucks and some of our great mass mass loyalty programs at the heart, you know, even a lot of our retailers, you know, you you can learn a lot in terms of what behavior, do they benefit from and then becomes endearing to their relationship and consumers relationship with the brand. But where the you know, a lot of this is about, again, back to the human centered design or, you know, consumer centricity. It's it's back to consumers feeling like I am this is being done for me. This is being done to add value to me and to my life.

This isn't about what you can get from me. And I think it really is that rebalancing of, the equation. And so I data is the same thing. I think when people are we know this are willing to give their data. It was it's really removing that that inability to know and control your data.

But when you are able to, say yes to yes, data in this context, Yes. Because the personalization on the other side is going to be worth it. I think we're gonna get more valuable uses of data and more control over it and actually ways to we're gonna be able to enhance programs around it between the consumer and the brand or the consumer and the retailer. So I think it's gonna open up a ton of possibility. And again, it's it's creativity as the solve.

You know, I I think if we, it is pushing us to think and act differently, and to design and devise programs that are, that have a different kind of outcome at the heart. 1 of, capturing more understanding about consumers and then our ability to really agilely and quickly respond to it.

And you've been touching on, something that I think is another good segue to, something you've written recently about and this idea of quantum commerce, and you hit on one of the pillars about creativity. Tell us more about what you mean by quantum commerce.

So Raja, who has been a longtime CMO of Mastercard, really coined the phrase of commerce, of quantum marketing a number of years ago, not that long ago, but, you know, within the last 5 years or so. And it really was speaking to the dimensionalization of marketing. And he was coming from a CMO's toolbox and empathy for someone in his role in, you know, massive companies today that have so many different KPIs and and so many different requirements on them for what they're delivering for their organizations. And we thought that we're in an evolution now of commerce when you look at sort of the phases that we've gone through in commerce maturity, that it doesn't just stop at this notion that we talked about earlier in terms of unifying the commerce channels or unifying, connecting commerce across all of your different channels, which we sort of, in some ways, was thinking, well, maybe that is the ultimate, you know, end goal for all things that we're trying to design for. But in actuality, there might be this next territory that we're really entering, especially with AI's entrance into this space across many of these different user, cases and experiences.

Is there this idea of quantum commerce happening right now? And can we start to get clear about what are the, tools, knowledge, and skills that need to we need to think about that is really, a a quantum commerce marketer methods. You know, who are we looking for in these roles? What do we need to train for? What do we need to upscale around?

And, and then as an agency, what do we how do we partner and build that capability for ourselves and for our clients to be able to deliver on this this next wave where commerce is becoming more central to all things marketing and becoming critically important. Obviously, it always has been to the success of a company, but the way we're thinking about it, the way we're leveraging is less from just a tactical, how do we drive conversion and transaction, but much more into a strategic upfront way of thinking about everything from insights to channel strategies, to go to market strategies, as we talked about, that really, you know, shift the way an organization is behaving.

So for those wanting to take the leap into quantum commerce, what are a few key principles that folks can keep in mind?

Well, I do think at the heart of it, there is this idea of embracing creativity. So, again, back to notions of how sometimes we think about language and it kind of defines or, you know, ends up narrowing our action. Oftentimes, when we talk about commerce, you think of it very transactionally. You don't think about it necessarily informed or coming from coming from this area, the mechanics and utility and functionality that are being built into all of these platforms, all these marketplaces, the tools that are there, aren't there just to, again, places, the tools that are there aren't there just to, again, programmatically or use algorithms to get you into transaction mode. It also allows for an enabling of technology, into creativity.

And it is it's just never been more exciting for a creative person to think about, okay, how do I utilize all of this capability, this technology capability that's there to do things for the consumer that were just never been possible before. We have a really great piece of work around Oreo codes where you simply scan the barcode on cartons of milk, any kind of milk, any kind of milk that you can imagine that you could find. I love that. You you get you get, you know, yeah, a promotion for Oreo cookies because we know that nothing goes better than Oreos and milk. We know people have been buying all sorts of kinds of milk and that category is exploding.

But the cookie category actually is a bit a bit in decline. And so how do we kind of refresh on bringing these 2 favorites together again? That's enabled by AI. It's enabled by your mobile phone. But it is is asking someone to do something, to get something, and it that in that interaction is, an exchange of love between the consumer and the brand.

So it's that creativity, I think, being infused into the space of commerce is very ripe for now and into the future, and I think it has to be part of everyone in in this area's, way that they're approaching things and thinking about it in their roles. The next one is, having a generalist view, but when it comes to commerce. So recognizing that, again, there's a lot of different capability that is gonna be essential and critical here. You need to build diverse teams, but you also need leadership that is gonna be, fluent across technology, media, creativity, and you know the retailer side of the equation, the manufacturer and brand side of the equation. It's gonna take people who have really grown up in the space and have also kind of transcended these different roles.

And then the last, that we really lean into is recognizing the, commerce tech stack and the myriad of partners that are playing here now from the entertainment partners to the other channel partners to technology partners, the Adobe's, the Salesforce, the Googles of this world. The partnership is really rich and exciting as well, and that is where the ability to, be a systems integrator or to really bring the partnership and, into a more collaborative space to, again, deliver for the consumer in ways that have never been possible before. So those are just 3 of the things that we're thinking about in terms of how this is really opening up in a, exponential way the the possibility for commerce.

So for those wanting to take the leap into quantum commerce, what are a few key principles that that folks can keep in mind?

Well, I do think at the heart of it, there is this idea of embracing creativity. So again, back to notions of how sometimes we think about language and it's kind of defines or, you know, ends up narrowing our action. Oftentimes, when we talk about commerce, you think of it very transactionally. You don't think about it coming from coming from this area, the mechanics and utility and functionality that are being built into all these platforms, all these platforms, all these marketplaces, the tools that are there aren't there just to, again, programmatically or use algorithms to get you into transaction mode. It also allows for an enabling of technology, into creativity.

And it is it's just never been more exciting for a creative person to think about, okay, how do I utilize all of this capability, this technology capability that's there to do things for the consumer that were just never been possible before. We have a really great piece of work around Oreo codes where you simply scan the barcode on cartons of milk, any kind of milk, any kind of milk that you can imagine that you could find. You get a promotion for Oreo cookies because we know that nothing goes better than Oreos and milk. We know people have been buying all sorts of kinds of milk, and that category is exploding. But the cookie category actually is a bit a bit in decline.

And so how do we kind of refresh on bringing these 2 favorites together again? That's enabled by AI. It's enabled by your mobile phone, but it is is asking someone to do something to get something. And it that in that interaction is, an exchange of love between the consumer and the brand. So it's that creativity, I think, being infused into the space of commerce is very ripe for now and into the future.

And I think it has to be part of everyone in in this area's, way that they're approaching things and thinking about it in their roles. The next one is, having a generalist view, but when it comes to commerce. So recognizing that again, there's a lot of different capability that is gonna be essential and critical here. You need to build diverse teams, but you also need leadership that is gonna be, fluent across technology, media, creativity, and, you know, the retailer side of the equation, the manufacturer and brand side of the equation. It's gonna take people who have really grown up in the space and have also kind of transcended these different roles.

And then the last, that we really lean into is recognizing the, commerce tech stack and the myriad of partners that are playing here now from the entertainment partners to the other channel partners to technology partners the Adobe's, the Salesforce, the Googles of this world. The partnership is really rich and exciting as well, and that is where the ability to, be a systems integrator or to really bring the partnership and, into a more collaborative space to, again, deliver for the consumer in ways that have never been possible before. So those are just 3 of the things that we're thinking about in terms of how this is really opening up in a, exponential way, the the possibility for commerce.

That's amazing. And I know a lot of these topics you you've written about at length, and we have a couple of the links there, set up for us on our podcast show notes. So please definitely, for those that haven't read those, you should definitely join us and and listen into that, and and watch and read, all the great things that Beth Ann has shared with us. Before we wrap up, as we do and for those that have listened to the show before they, they are used to this trend. But at the end of the show, we always kinda pivot away from our topic du jour and hear a little bit more about what keeps you busy, what are your habits, what do you like, what things, are you interested in.

And you shared with me something really interesting about, an animal that you love. Talk about that and and what what made you really interested.

Well, it's gonna sound like a complete non sequitur from our conversation. But when, we talk about things that are, like, sort of fun that you don't know about each other and it is always fun to kinda go a little bit deeper and discover things. I since being a kid, and I don't know if it comes from the bar bar books that maybe some people are familiar with, but I was absolutely for a very long time, obsessed more barber than Dumbo, but I'll I'll take a I'll take them all, but I I'm it been like yes. Very, passionate about elephants from a very young age. And so when I just can't get enough of some people are those, you know, cute cats or cute dog videos.

I really love, watching elephants in their habitat and sanctuaries that are, you know, being sometimes protected or they've gotten away from their tribe. I just love learning about their, you know, the way that they have a tribalism, and they care for each other, how they learn their their intellect that they bring, you know, to the world and just like their the fact that they are such giant massive creatures, but at the same time, such gentle, loving, animals that are just, I, I find them so incredibly fascinating. I find it so sad. People who have, you know, harmed them over the years, but, I have a extraordinary elephant collection, you know, from motif to all different not live. Although I am Yeah.

Yeah. I had the the adopted elephant program where I do sponsor elephants in different parts of the world. But yeah. But I but more importantly do that. Yes.

You can do that. We can drop that link there as well. But,

yes, we sure can.

It's just like every I I love, like, a ceramic and glass and, all kinds of different artists, variations, and paintings of them. Every time I look over at one of my elephant prints or or elephant in any form, I just it just sort of makes me happy.

It's awesome. Have you ever gotten, like, close enough up to one to touch 1 or been interact with them in person, or is it more from afar?

I have. No. I I have in Sri Lanka and in Africa. So I've definitely had a few lovely personal moments with them as well. And you just you really realize when you're in person with them just how enormous they are.

And but at the same time, still, like, very, you know, you just get this gentle I know that they can be, you know, not gentle all the time, but you just get you get a feel from them, a vibe from them that is, you know, pretty pretty chill and spectacular and calming.

That's awesome. Well, thank you for sharing that, and thank you for all the the brilliance that you bring every day and it's certainly to this episode of the show as well. We really appreciate your time. We know you're you're swamped and busy doing all the great things you do. So, thanks for carving out a few minutes for us.

Well, Nick, thank you very much for inviting me to come on and having this good conversation together. I appreciate it.

Absolutely our pleasure, Beth Ann. We'll talk again soon. And thanks to you all for listening to Human Centered as well. To learn more about VML's CX practice and our approach to the work, you can check us out online atvml.com. We'd also love to hear your feedback on the show.

Give us a rating and offer up your thoughts wherever you listen to your podcasts, including Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, Amazon, and more. Have a topic idea or just wanna drop us a line? You can connect with me on x at Nick Brunker is my handle, or just shoot us an email. The address is humancentered@vml.com. Thanks again for listening.

We'll see you next time.